A Cessna 172 crashed yesterday short of the approach end of RWY 16
killing the pilot and instructor aboard. No cause for the accident has
yet been established, but the weather was at or near minimums for the
ILS-16 approach at the time of the crash and and tracking the flight
on:

http://www4.passur.com/hpn.html

at 15:10 local time on 4.23.05 shows the flight significantly below the
glideslope for much of the approach.

From the news reports I'd guess that it was an instrument student and a
CFII returning from ALB on a long IFR cross country flight.

Here are a couple of news reports:

http://www.capitalnews9.com/content/headlines/?ArID=127983&SecID=33
http://www.wfsb.com/Global/story.asp?S=3252575

Here's a story from the Stamford Advocate along with the usual helping of
assoholic reporter ignorance at the end:

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/local/scn-sa-plane6apr24,0,5850238,print.story?coll=stam-news-local-headlines
--
Plane crash kills 2 near Greenwich border
By Michael Dinan
Staff Writer
April 24, 2005
WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. -- A flight instructor and his student were found dead
in thick woods just beyond Greenwich's northwest corner yesterday afternoon,
after the single-engine propeller plane they were flying crashed during an
apparent attempt to land at Westchester County Airport, officials said.

"The plane was broken in half, it appeared to me, and there was fire, with
two people trapped in burning flame," North Castle, N.Y., Police Chief
Robert D'Angelo said during a news conference last night at the airport's
media center.

Airport officials identified the instructor as Isaac Negron of Hamden, and
the student as Lev Naumov, 23, of Yonkers, N.Y. Negron's age was not known
last night.

The Cessna 172 four-seater belonged to American Flyers, a flight instruction
school based at the airport, said Lawrence Salley, Westchester County's
transportation commissioner.

The men had flown out of the airport shortly after noon yesterday, to
Albany, N.Y., and appeared to be returning to the airport, though their
arrival was not scheduled.

The Federal Aviation Administration tower, based at the airport, lost radar
contact with the plane about 40 minutes before its smoldering remains were
located by North Castle firefighters, said Anthony Sutton, commissioner of
Westchester County's Department of Emergency Services.

The causes and times of the accident and deaths are not yet known. FAA
officials began investigating the crash yesterday, and National
Transportation Safety Board members are expected to join them today, Salley
said.

The Cessna disappeared from the FAA's radar at 3:19 p.m., Salley said. The
plane, which Salley said relayed no distress signals and whose pilot had no
verbal contact with the air tower, was last seen on screen about a
quarter-mile from the airport runway. It was flying at 800 feet, which
Salley said is not unusually low for a plane attempting to land at the
airport.

A hotline transmission from local police went out at 3:29 p.m., by which
time Westchester County's emergency response teams had converged to perform
a "grid type of search," Salley said. At 3:41 p.m., the FAA had confirmed
that no other air towers were able to locate the plane, Salley said.

The burning remains, were discovered at 4:01 p.m. by firefighters who
smelled something burning in the woods near the intersection of Routes 22
and 120 in North Castle. Negron and Naumov were found dead inside the plane,
D'Angelo said.

The Cessna 172 model was produced in 2001 and does not a have a "black box,"
Salley said. Experts can sometimes use the voice recording device to
reconstruct an accident.

The plane crashed near, but did not contaminate, the Kensico Reservoir,
officials said. It was not clear last night who owned the property where the
plane crashed. Officials said last night that they knew of no witnesses to
the accident.

Six flights were canceled and two flights were delayed as a result of the
crash, Salley said. Outbound services at the airport resumed at 5:20 p.m.
yesterday, but FAA officials halted inbound service, Salley said, to "check
out (the airport's) instrument landing system."

Grief counselors had arrived at the airport last night to talk to Negron's
and Naumov's families, Westchester County Police Commissioner Tom Belfiore
said.

American Flyers runs 15 flight schools nationwide, according to the
company's Web site. Salley, Westchester's transportation commissioner since
2000, said that he couldn't recall the company having a fatal crash before.

The Westchester County Airport grew out of plans to defend New York City
during World War II, and has evolved slowly into a modern airport used by
thousands of business and leisure travelers.

There have been numerous aviation accidents in the region since commercial
operations expanded. Since 1974, 40 people have died and 20 people have been
injured in 31 accidents after take-offs from and attempted landings at
Westchester County Airport.

Most recently, in June 2001, the pilot of a single-engine plane was killed
when his Piper Saratoga crashed into the fog-shrouded woods off Bedford Road
in backcountry Greenwich. The pilot had unsuccessfully attempted an
instrument landing at Westchester County Airport, about a half-mile from the
crash site.










"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
message
news:240420051342072877%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
>
> A Cessna 172 crashed yesterday short of the approach end of RWY 16
> killing the pilot and instructor aboard. No cause for the accident has
> yet been established, but the weather was at or near minimums for the
> ILS-16 approach at the time of the crash and and tracking the flight
> on:
>
> http://www4.passur.com/hpn.html
>
> at 15:10 local time on 4.23.05 shows the flight significantly below the
> glideslope for much of the approach.
>
> From the news reports I'd guess that it was an instrument student and a
> CFII returning from ALB on a long IFR cross country flight.
>
> Here are a couple of news reports:
>
> http://www.capitalnews9.com/content/headlines/?ArID=127983&SecID=33
> http://www.wfsb.com/Global/story.asp?S=3252575

What does the reporter say in the article that causes you to classify him as an "assoholic?"

"R.L." wrote:

> Here's a story from the Stamford Advocate along with the usual helping of
> assoholic reporter ignorance at the end:
>
>
> --
> Plane crash kills 2 near Greenwich border
> By Michael Dinan
> Staff Writer
> April 24, 2005
> WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. -- A flight instructor and his student were found dead
> in thick woods just beyond Greenwich's northwest corner yesterday afternoon,
> after the single-engine propeller plane they were flying crashed during an
> apparent attempt to land at Westchester County Airport, officials said.
>
> "The plane was broken in half, it appeared to me, and there was fire, with
> two people trapped in burning flame," North Castle, N.Y., Police Chief
> Robert D'Angelo said during a news conference last night at the airport's
> media center.
>
> Airport officials identified the instructor as Isaac Negron of Hamden, and
> the student as Lev Naumov, 23, of Yonkers, N.Y. Negron's age was not known
> last night.
>
> The Cessna 172 four-seater belonged to American Flyers, a flight instruction
> school based at the airport, said Lawrence Salley, Westchester County's
> transportation commissioner.
>
> The men had flown out of the airport shortly after noon yesterday, to
> Albany, N.Y., and appeared to be returning to the airport, though their
> arrival was not scheduled.
>
> The Federal Aviation Administration tower, based at the airport, lost radar
> contact with the plane about 40 minutes before its smoldering remains were
> located by North Castle firefighters, said Anthony Sutton, commissioner of
> Westchester County's Department of Emergency Services.
>
> The causes and times of the accident and deaths are not yet known. FAA
> officials began investigating the crash yesterday, and National
> Transportation Safety Board members are expected to join them today, Salley
> said.
>
> The Cessna disappeared from the FAA's radar at 3:19 p.m., Salley said. The
> plane, which Salley said relayed no distress signals and whose pilot had no
> verbal contact with the air tower, was last seen on screen about a
> quarter-mile from the airport runway. It was flying at 800 feet, which
> Salley said is not unusually low for a plane attempting to land at the
> airport.
>
> A hotline transmission from local police went out at 3:29 p.m., by which
> time Westchester County's emergency response teams had converged to perform
> a "grid type of search," Salley said. At 3:41 p.m., the FAA had confirmed
> that no other air towers were able to locate the plane, Salley said.
>
> The burning remains, were discovered at 4:01 p.m. by firefighters who
> smelled something burning in the woods near the intersection of Routes 22
> and 120 in North Castle. Negron and Naumov were found dead inside the plane,
> D'Angelo said.
>
> The Cessna 172 model was produced in 2001 and does not a have a "black box,"
> Salley said. Experts can sometimes use the voice recording device to
> reconstruct an accident.
>
> The plane crashed near, but did not contaminate, the Kensico Reservoir,
> officials said. It was not clear last night who owned the property where the
> plane crashed. Officials said last night that they knew of no witnesses to
> the accident.
>
> Six flights were canceled and two flights were delayed as a result of the
> crash, Salley said. Outbound services at the airport resumed at 5:20 p.m.
> yesterday, but FAA officials halted inbound service, Salley said, to "check
> out (the airport's) instrument landing system."
>
> Grief counselors had arrived at the airport last night to talk to Negron's
> and Naumov's families, Westchester County Police Commissioner Tom Belfiore
> said.
>
> American Flyers runs 15 flight schools nationwide, according to the
> company's Web site. Salley, Westchester's transportation commissioner since
> 2000, said that he couldn't recall the company having a fatal crash before.
>
> The Westchester County Airport grew out of plans to defend New York City
> during World War II, and has evolved slowly into a modern airport used by
> thousands of business and leisure travelers.
>
> There have been numerous aviation accidents in the region since commercial
> operations expanded. Since 1974, 40 people have died and 20 people have been
> injured in 31 accidents after take-offs from and attempted landings at
> Westchester County Airport.
>
> Most recently, in June 2001, the pilot of a single-engine plane was killed
> when his Piper Saratoga crashed into the fog-shrouded woods off Bedford Road
> in backcountry Greenwich. The pilot had unsuccessfully attempted an
> instrument landing at Westchester County Airport, about a half-mile from the
> crash site.
>

The two statements...

"its smoldering remains were located"
"The burning remains, were discovered"

....did it for me. I think while one could be explained as poetic license the
second was just for the fun of it.

Also, I doubt the guy gives a 30 year death and maiming history for every
car wreck he covers.

"Since 1974, 40 people have died and 20 people have been
injured in 31 accidents after take-offs from and attempted landings at
Westchester County Airport"


> wrote in message ...
> What does the reporter say in the article that causes you to classify him
> as an "assoholic?"
>
> "R.L." wrote:
>
>> Here's a story from the Stamford Advocate along with the usual helping of
>> assoholic reporter ignorance at the end:
>>
>>
>> --
>> Plane crash kills 2 near Greenwich border
>> By Michael Dinan
>> Staff Writer
>> April 24, 2005
>> WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. -- A flight instructor and his student were found
>> dead
>> in thick woods just beyond Greenwich's northwest corner yesterday
>> afternoon,
>> after the single-engine propeller plane they were flying crashed during
>> an
>> apparent attempt to land at Westchester County Airport, officials said.
>>
>> "The plane was broken in half, it appeared to me, and there was fire,
>> with
>> two people trapped in burning flame," North Castle, N.Y., Police Chief
>> Robert D'Angelo said during a news conference last night at the airport's
>> media center.
>>
>> Airport officials identified the instructor as Isaac Negron of Hamden,
>> and
>> the student as Lev Naumov, 23, of Yonkers, N.Y. Negron's age was not
>> known
>> last night.
>>
>> The Cessna 172 four-seater belonged to American Flyers, a flight
>> instruction
>> school based at the airport, said Lawrence Salley, Westchester County's
>> transportation commissioner.
>>
>> The men had flown out of the airport shortly after noon yesterday, to
>> Albany, N.Y., and appeared to be returning to the airport, though their
>> arrival was not scheduled.
>>
>> The Federal Aviation Administration tower, based at the airport, lost
>> radar
>> contact with the plane about 40 minutes before its smoldering remains
>> were
>> located by North Castle firefighters, said Anthony Sutton, commissioner
>> of
>> Westchester County's Department of Emergency Services.
>>
>> The causes and times of the accident and deaths are not yet known. FAA
>> officials began investigating the crash yesterday, and National
>> Transportation Safety Board members are expected to join them today,
>> Salley
>> said.
>>
>> The Cessna disappeared from the FAA's radar at 3:19 p.m., Salley said.
>> The
>> plane, which Salley said relayed no distress signals and whose pilot had
>> no
>> verbal contact with the air tower, was last seen on screen about a
>> quarter-mile from the airport runway. It was flying at 800 feet, which
>> Salley said is not unusually low for a plane attempting to land at the
>> airport.
>>
>> A hotline transmission from local police went out at 3:29 p.m., by which
>> time Westchester County's emergency response teams had converged to
>> perform
>> a "grid type of search," Salley said. At 3:41 p.m., the FAA had confirmed
>> that no other air towers were able to locate the plane, Salley said.
>>
>> The burning remains, were discovered at 4:01 p.m. by firefighters who
>> smelled something burning in the woods near the intersection of Routes 22
>> and 120 in North Castle. Negron and Naumov were found dead inside the
>> plane,
>> D'Angelo said.
>>
>> The Cessna 172 model was produced in 2001 and does not a have a "black
>> box,"
>> Salley said. Experts can sometimes use the voice recording device to
>> reconstruct an accident.
>>
>> The plane crashed near, but did not contaminate, the Kensico Reservoir,
>> officials said. It was not clear last night who owned the property where
>> the
>> plane crashed. Officials said last night that they knew of no witnesses
>> to
>> the accident.
>>
>> Six flights were canceled and two flights were delayed as a result of the
>> crash, Salley said. Outbound services at the airport resumed at 5:20 p.m.
>> yesterday, but FAA officials halted inbound service, Salley said, to
>> "check
>> out (the airport's) instrument landing system."
>>
>> Grief counselors had arrived at the airport last night to talk to
>> Negron's
>> and Naumov's families, Westchester County Police Commissioner Tom
>> Belfiore
>> said.
>>
>> American Flyers runs 15 flight schools nationwide, according to the
>> company's Web site. Salley, Westchester's transportation commissioner
>> since
>> 2000, said that he couldn't recall the company having a fatal crash
>> before.
>>
>> The Westchester County Airport grew out of plans to defend New York City
>> during World War II, and has evolved slowly into a modern airport used by
>> thousands of business and leisure travelers.
>>
>> There have been numerous aviation accidents in the region since
>> commercial
>> operations expanded. Since 1974, 40 people have died and 20 people have
>> been
>> injured in 31 accidents after take-offs from and attempted landings at
>> Westchester County Airport.
>>
>> Most recently, in June 2001, the pilot of a single-engine plane was
>> killed
>> when his Piper Saratoga crashed into the fog-shrouded woods off Bedford
>> Road
>> in backcountry Greenwich. The pilot had unsuccessfully attempted an
>> instrument landing at Westchester County Airport, about a half-mile from
>> the
>> crash site.
>>
>

wrote:
> What does the reporter say in the article that causes you to classify him
> as an "assoholic?"

What I think is funny: "burning flame"

Really!?!?! What other kinds of flames are there?

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

R.L. wrote:
> Here's a story from the Stamford Advocate along with the usual helping of
> assoholic reporter ignorance at the end:

Sounds completely cockeyed to me. Westchester is a controlled field, yet the
reporter states that the "pilot had no verbal contact with the air tower"?
Conditions were IMC, yet "their arrival was not scheduled"?

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

When I read posts critical of the knowledge of reporters I think one of
two scenarios: One, the poster has forgotten how much training it took
for him to get so "smart" and thereby figures the reporter and anyone
else should know as much as he does. Or, second, criticizing others is a
way for some to pump up their own egoes. Some reporters are better than
others (as are pilots), and they have to report on a wide variety of
topics in a timely fashion and often make statements that are erroneous
or seem juvenile. They can't all be perfect or there would be only one
newspaper in the country. Some of these statements, however, answer the
questions that uninformed readers may want to know, such as the fact
that 172s don't have a black box: A stupid statement to a pilot but not
to the readership. I think "assoholic" does not apply to the reporter of
this particular story. Now, politically motivated stories are another
matter...


wrote:
> What does the reporter say in the article that causes you to classify him as an "assoholic?"
>
> "R.L." wrote:

George Patterson wrote:

> Sounds completely cockeyed to me. Westchester is a controlled field, yet
> the reporter states that the "pilot had no verbal contact with the air
> tower"? Conditions were IMC, yet "their arrival was not scheduled"?

The reporter thinks of "scheduled" as in part 121. If someone mentioned
"general aviation" to him, he'd probably want to interview the fellow (of
obvious import due to his high rank {8^).

It's possible that there was no contact with the tower if the pilot hadn't
been handed off yet (or if he never made contact with the tower after the
hand-off). It's been a couple of years since I ILSed into HPN, so I don't
know how early/late TRACON does the hand-off.

- Andrew

RomeoMike wrote:

> They can't all be perfect or there would be only one
> newspaper in the country.

I don't expect a reporter to know all subjects. I expect them to ask
intelligent questions, collect and understand the answers, and report from
that. This obviously has not occurred to some degree with this reporter.

However, the reporter also chose inflammatory phases (if you'll forgive the
pun), which does - in my opinion - earn distain. The question as to
whether he or she discussed the last few decades of automobile accidents
while reporting on every accident on the road is a good one, and points out
the bias reflected in the reporting.

> Some of these statements, however, answer the
> questions that uninformed readers may want to know, such as the fact
> that 172s don't have a black box: A stupid statement to a pilot but not
> to the readership.

I don't think that anyone questions the utility of these informational
points. It would have been nice had the reporter indicated that this type
of aircraft is not required to - and such almost never do - carry a black
box. Instead, he left that hanging as if the plane was in violation of
some rule which will prevent experts from reconstructing the accident.

Further, the mention of "arrival not scheduled" without context implies a
rogue operation, as opposed to someone operating under ATC control but
without being a part of an airline. It's just as bad as the reporters that
love to write "w/o filing a flight plan" yet apparently hate to write
"which wasn't required".

- Andrew

George wrote:

> Westchester is a controlled field, yet the
> reporter states that the "pilot had no verbal contact with the air
tower"?

Technically, this might be correct. Perhaps approach had yet to hand
off the aircraft to the tower.

> Conditions were IMC, yet "their arrival was not scheduled"?

Again, technically, this might be considered correct, too. The
aircraft was operating under part 91, not part 121.

Its possible those facts were relayed to the reporter, who then added
them to the article out of context.

--
Peter

"Peter R." > wrote in message
oups.com...
> George wrote:
>
>> Westchester is a controlled field, yet the
>> reporter states that the "pilot had no verbal contact with the air
> tower"?
>
> Technically, this might be correct. Perhaps approach had yet to hand
> off the aircraft to the tower.
>
>> Conditions were IMC, yet "their arrival was not scheduled"?
>
> Again, technically, this might be considered correct, too. The
> aircraft was operating under part 91, not part 121.
>
> Its possible those facts were relayed to the reporter, who then added
> them to the article out of context.
>
> --
> Peter
>

And gets information he doesn't understand he should follow up on it, not
just stick it in the story.

In article >,
says...
> wrote:
> > What does the reporter say in the article that causes you to classify him
> > as an "assoholic?"
>
> What I think is funny: "burning flame"
>
> Really!?!?! What other kinds of flames are there?
>
>
Flaming a**holes ... like the reporter.

The reporter is young ("staff writer"), doesn't know aviation, is hostile to
it and is hostile to HPN. For what purpose would he try to make a tortured
connection between HPN's increased commercial activity and GA accidents? Why
else dredge up stats from the seventies and dust-off the airport's history
if not to imply that HPN has outlived its purpose?

He's also dusting off his editor's old press-kits from the come-lately
revisionist, not-in-my-back-yard nouveau riche disingenuous scumbags who
moved to the nuisance that they consider HPN and now want to get rid of it.

Hence the "noise abatement" for the oh-so-off-put weenies whose
sensibilities are offended if they hear the sound of an aircraft while
they're playing canasta and munching on "cah-shooos" whilst they sip their
gin martinis in their recently acquired McMansions. There's a load of them
that were recently built less than a quarter-mile from the Rwy 36
threshold - that's the ILS Rwy and the active about 75% of the time. The
developers placed them so close that I can see the gardeners taking a leak
while coming in for a touch-and-go.








> wrote in message ...
> What does the reporter say in the article that causes you to classify him
as an "assoholic?"
>
> "R.L." wrote:
>
> > Here's a story from the Stamford Advocate along with the usual helping
of
> > assoholic reporter ignorance at the end:
> >
> >
> > --
> > Plane crash kills 2 near Greenwich border
> > By Michael Dinan
> > Staff Writer
> > April 24, 2005
> > WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. -- A flight instructor and his student were found
dead
> > in thick woods just beyond Greenwich's northwest corner yesterday
afternoon,
> > after the single-engine propeller plane they were flying crashed during
an
> > apparent attempt to land at Westchester County Airport, officials said.
> >
> > "The plane was broken in half, it appeared to me, and there was fire,
with
> > two people trapped in burning flame," North Castle, N.Y., Police Chief
> > Robert D'Angelo said during a news conference last night at the
airport's
> > media center.
> >
> > Airport officials identified the instructor as Isaac Negron of Hamden,
and
> > the student as Lev Naumov, 23, of Yonkers, N.Y. Negron's age was not
known
> > last night.
> >
> > The Cessna 172 four-seater belonged to American Flyers, a flight
instruction
> > school based at the airport, said Lawrence Salley, Westchester County's
> > transportation commissioner.
> >
> > The men had flown out of the airport shortly after noon yesterday, to
> > Albany, N.Y., and appeared to be returning to the airport, though their
> > arrival was not scheduled.
> >
> > The Federal Aviation Administration tower, based at the airport, lost
radar
> > contact with the plane about 40 minutes before its smoldering remains
were
> > located by North Castle firefighters, said Anthony Sutton, commissioner
of
> > Westchester County's Department of Emergency Services.
> >
> > The causes and times of the accident and deaths are not yet known. FAA
> > officials began investigating the crash yesterday, and National
> > Transportation Safety Board members are expected to join them today,
Salley
> > said.
> >
> > The Cessna disappeared from the FAA's radar at 3:19 p.m., Salley said.
The
> > plane, which Salley said relayed no distress signals and whose pilot had
no
> > verbal contact with the air tower, was last seen on screen about a
> > quarter-mile from the airport runway. It was flying at 800 feet, which
> > Salley said is not unusually low for a plane attempting to land at the
> > airport.
> >
> > A hotline transmission from local police went out at 3:29 p.m., by which
> > time Westchester County's emergency response teams had converged to
perform
> > a "grid type of search," Salley said. At 3:41 p.m., the FAA had
confirmed
> > that no other air towers were able to locate the plane, Salley said.
> >
> > The burning remains, were discovered at 4:01 p.m. by firefighters who
> > smelled something burning in the woods near the intersection of Routes
22
> > and 120 in North Castle. Negron and Naumov were found dead inside the
plane,
> > D'Angelo said.
> >
> > The Cessna 172 model was produced in 2001 and does not a have a "black
box,"
> > Salley said. Experts can sometimes use the voice recording device to
> > reconstruct an accident.
> >
> > The plane crashed near, but did not contaminate, the Kensico Reservoir,
> > officials said. It was not clear last night who owned the property where
the
> > plane crashed. Officials said last night that they knew of no witnesses
to
> > the accident.
> >
> > Six flights were canceled and two flights were delayed as a result of
the
> > crash, Salley said. Outbound services at the airport resumed at 5:20
p.m.
> > yesterday, but FAA officials halted inbound service, Salley said, to
"check
> > out (the airport's) instrument landing system."
> >
> > Grief counselors had arrived at the airport last night to talk to
Negron's
> > and Naumov's families, Westchester County Police Commissioner Tom
Belfiore
> > said.
> >
> > American Flyers runs 15 flight schools nationwide, according to the
> > company's Web site. Salley, Westchester's transportation commissioner
since
> > 2000, said that he couldn't recall the company having a fatal crash
before.
> >
> > The Westchester County Airport grew out of plans to defend New York City
> > during World War II, and has evolved slowly into a modern airport used
by
> > thousands of business and leisure travelers.
> >
> > There have been numerous aviation accidents in the region since
commercial
> > operations expanded. Since 1974, 40 people have died and 20 people have
been
> > injured in 31 accidents after take-offs from and attempted landings at
> > Westchester County Airport.
> >
> > Most recently, in June 2001, the pilot of a single-engine plane was
killed
> > when his Piper Saratoga crashed into the fog-shrouded woods off Bedford
Road
> > in backcountry Greenwich. The pilot had unsuccessfully attempted an
> > instrument landing at Westchester County Airport, about a half-mile from
the
> > crash site.
> >
>

In article e.com>,
Andrew Gideon > wrote:

> George Patterson wrote:
>
> > Sounds completely cockeyed to me. Westchester is a controlled field, yet
> > the reporter states that the "pilot had no verbal contact with the air
> > tower"? Conditions were IMC, yet "their arrival was not scheduled"?
>
> The reporter thinks of "scheduled" as in part 121. If someone mentioned
> "general aviation" to him, he'd probably want to interview the fellow (of
> obvious import due to his high rank {8^).
>
> It's possible that there was no contact with the tower if the pilot hadn't
> been handed off yet (or if he never made contact with the tower after the
> hand-off). It's been a couple of years since I ILSed into HPN, so I don't
> know how early/late TRACON does the hand-off.

Believe me, by the time he got to his final position he would have been
handed off long ago. Normally NY App does the handoff shortly before
clearing for the approach, certainly outside the HESTER (the outer
makrker/FAF). He went down less than a half mile from the threshold.

It's worth noting that the student was NOT an instrument student. He
was still working on his private ticket. It was a pretty low day for a
student pilot to be shooting instrument approaches, in fact I have no
idea what they were doing out there that day. I can't imagine my
primary instructor allowing me out in such low weather.

In article
<250420051652421759%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjunkatma >,
Tom Fleischman >
wrote:

> Normally NY App does the handoff shortly before
> clearing for the approach, certainly outside the HESTER (the outer
> makrker/FAF).

DOH!!

That would be "after".

wrote:

> wrote:
>
>>What does the reporter say in the article that causes you to classify him
>>as an "assoholic?"
>
>
> What I think is funny: "burning flame"
>
> Really!?!?! What other kinds of flames are there?
>

Internet ng flames. :-)

That was too easy...


Matt

The damned ceiling couldn't have been more than 500 feet. Temp/dewpoint
spread was zero. Says something about American Flyers that it's taking a
primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .



"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
message
news:250420051652421759%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
> In article e.com>,
> Andrew Gideon > wrote:
>
> > George Patterson wrote:
> >
> > > Sounds completely cockeyed to me. Westchester is a controlled field,
yet
> > > the reporter states that the "pilot had no verbal contact with the air
> > > tower"? Conditions were IMC, yet "their arrival was not scheduled"?
> >
> > The reporter thinks of "scheduled" as in part 121. If someone mentioned
> > "general aviation" to him, he'd probably want to interview the fellow
(of
> > obvious import due to his high rank {8^).
> >
> > It's possible that there was no contact with the tower if the pilot
hadn't
> > been handed off yet (or if he never made contact with the tower after
the
> > hand-off). It's been a couple of years since I ILSed into HPN, so I
don't
> > know how early/late TRACON does the hand-off.
>
> Believe me, by the time he got to his final position he would have been
> handed off long ago. Normally NY App does the handoff shortly before
> clearing for the approach, certainly outside the HESTER (the outer
> makrker/FAF). He went down less than a half mile from the threshold.
>
> It's worth noting that the student was NOT an instrument student. He
> was still working on his private ticket. It was a pretty low day for a
> student pilot to be shooting instrument approaches, in fact I have no
> idea what they were doing out there that day. I can't imagine my
> primary instructor allowing me out in such low weather.

A.Coleman wrote:

> The damned ceiling couldn't have been more than 500 feet. Temp/dewpoint
> spread was zero.Â*Â*SaysÂ*somethingÂ*aboutÂ*AmericanÂ*Flyers *thatÂ*it'sÂ*takingÂ*a
> primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .

Right. Instead of training students in this weather, they should be
permitted to experience it for the first time on their own.

I've no idea of the status of the left-seater. IR and just getting
experience in real weather? Student on his first instrument training
flight? There's a huge difference between the two, of course.

I do know that my CFII and I sought out poor weather in the later parts of
my training. I've flown appoaches down to actual misseds during that time,
and I'm glad of it.

[Though the short term weather reporting does indicate a possible cell, and
that would be a little worrisome.]

- Andrew

Tom wrote:

> It's worth noting that the student was NOT an instrument student. He
> was still working on his private ticket.

If that is truly the case, then it would seem more probably that the
instructor were flying the approach from the left seat. I cannot
imagine any student pilot being able to, nor a primary instructor
allowing the student to fly an approach in actual low IFR conditions.

--
Peter

> approach from the left seat

Sorry, meant to type right seat.

--
Peter

"A.Coleman" > wrote in message
. ..

> Says something about American Flyers that it's taking a
> primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .

As far as I am concerned, it would be just fine for a flight school to give
intro rides to prospective pilots, no less student pilots, in low IMC. The
relevant question is the experience level of the CFII, especially his
experience in low IMC. It is entirely possible for a CFII to have never
been in a cloud and/or to have never been in the right seat in IMC -- THOSE
experience factors are far more important IMHO than the experience of the
pilot in the left seat.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

"A.Coleman" > wrote in message
. ..

> Says something about American Flyers that it's taking a
> primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .

As far as I am concerned, it would be just fine for a flight school to give
intro rides to prospective pilots, no less student pilots, in low IMC. The
relevant question is the experience level of the CFII, especially his
experience in low IMC. It is entirely possible for a CFII to have never
been in a cloud and/or to have never been in the right seat in IMC -- THOSE
experience factors are far more important IMHO than the experience of the
pilot in the left seat.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Earlier thread idicated 200 and 1/8 I believe. If that's what is being
reported, a good lesson may be that, "we don't even try that, it's time
to divert"

A.Coleman wrote:
> The damned ceiling couldn't have been more than 500 feet. Temp/dewpoint
> spread was zero. Says something about American Flyers that it's taking a
> primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .
>
>
>

I agree, but it is more meaningful to the pilot if he/she has had some
instrument training. I once gave a cross country phase check to a
(quite capable) student pilot. When we departed (near dusk) it was VFR
but when we returned 45 minutes later, the infamous Southern California
stratus had covered our home base. I had the student fly the whole
approach. I handled the radios and watched carefully. Althought it
wasn't "low IMC" it was a great experience for him- a real confidence
builder.

Lee Elson
Richard Kaplan wrote:
> "A.Coleman" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
> > Says something about American Flyers that it's taking a
> > primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .
>
> As far as I am concerned, it would be just fine for a flight school
to give
> intro rides to prospective pilots, no less student pilots, in low
IMC. The
> relevant question is the experience level of the CFII, especially his
> experience in low IMC. It is entirely possible for a CFII to have
never
> been in a cloud and/or to have never been in the right seat in IMC --
THOSE
> experience factors are far more important IMHO than the experience of
the
> pilot in the left seat.
>
> --------------------
> Richard Kaplan
>
> www.flyimc.com

An old flame.



> wrote in message
...
> wrote:
> > What does the reporter say in the article that causes you to classify
him
> > as an "assoholic?"
>
> What I think is funny: "burning flame"
>
> Really!?!?! What other kinds of flames are there?
>
> --
> Mike Flyin'8
> PP-ASEL
> Temecula, CA
> http://flying.4alexanders.com

Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
> It's possible that there was no contact with the tower if the pilot hadn't
> been handed off yet (or if he never made contact with the tower after the
> hand-off).

He's 1/4 mile from the runway and hasn't been handed off yet?

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

>> Its possible those facts were relayed to the reporter, who then added
>> them to the article out of context.
>>
>> --
>> Peter
>>
>
> And gets information he doesn't understand he should follow up on it, not
> just stick it in the story.

I've never seen a reporter do that... they think they have it right the
first time and are the most stupid people I've seen... seeming to be
experts at things they no nothing about... they don't even know enough to
ask the question..

but that's JMHO
BT

In article <240420051342072877%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjunkatma >, Tom Fleischman wrote:
>
> A Cessna 172 crashed yesterday short of the approach end of RWY 16
> killing the pilot and instructor aboard. No cause for the accident has
> yet been established, but the weather was at or near minimums for the
> ILS-16 approach at the time of the crash and and tracking the flight
> on:

Expletive. This hits too close to home. My sympathies to both
families.


Morris

BTIZ wrote:
>
> I've never seen a reporter do that... they think they have it right the
> first time and are the most stupid people I've seen...

The few with which I've dealt haven't seemed to be stupid -- they're just in too
much of a hurry to double-check things. Gotta make that deadline.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

George, this is not about common sense, this is about the belief that only
you have common sense and the rest of the world are idiots. The sooner you
get that, the sooner you will stop posting these reasonable posts and get
with the flaming.

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:Pmhbe.4701$WX.776@trndny01...
> BTIZ wrote:
>>
>> I've never seen a reporter do that... they think they have it right the
>> first time and are the most stupid people I've seen...
>
> The few with which I've dealt haven't seemed to be stupid -- they're just
> in too much of a hurry to double-check things. Gotta make that deadline.
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

On 4/25/05 10:47 PM, in article ,
"Ed" > spewed:

> George, this is not about common sense, this is about the belief that only
> you have common sense and the rest of the world are idiots. The sooner you
> get that, the sooner you will stop posting these reasonable posts and get
> with the flaming.
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:Pmhbe.4701$WX.776@trndny01...
>> BTIZ wrote:
>>>
>>> I've never seen a reporter do that... they think they have it right the
>>> first time and are the most stupid people I've seen...
>>
>> The few with which I've dealt haven't seemed to be stupid -- they're just
>> in too much of a hurry to double-check things. Gotta make that deadline.
>>
>> George Patterson
>> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
>> mashed potatoes.
>
>
I work at a newspaper. About half of the reporters are concrete stupid. We
had one last year doing an interview with a Navy vet and she asked him what
Pearl Harbor was. Those of us that heard her ask were stunned when he
continued with the interview instead of hanging up on her dumb ass.
Even when we did a story on the flight school I trained at, and I pointed
out a number of glaring errors long before deadline, they were not fixed.
Among other things, it "sounded better" to say "license to fly" when the
student had only soloed.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

They're stupid AND lazy. I was in P.R. for about 10 years and reporters just
ate out of my hand. I basically did the work for them on the facts and my
clients paid for it. My biggest successes were stories that I wrote but were
printed whole cloth by the paper. I once was duped by a client. I sent out
press releases, press kits and got the nets, locals, cable and radio to
cover an event based upon a wrong premise. I got ink, video and radio for my
client like there was no tomorrow. Not one of them fact-checked.

The saying used to be: those who can't, teach. Now it's: those who can't,
report.





"Wizard of Draws" > wrote in
message news:BE933281.64DF1%jeffbTAKEOUTALLCAPS@TOEMAILwiz ardofdraws.com...
> On 4/25/05 10:47 PM, in article
> ,
> "Ed" > spewed:
>
>> George, this is not about common sense, this is about the belief that
>> only
>> you have common sense and the rest of the world are idiots. The sooner
>> you
>> get that, the sooner you will stop posting these reasonable posts and get
>> with the flaming.
>>
>> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
>> news:Pmhbe.4701$WX.776@trndny01...
>>> BTIZ wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've never seen a reporter do that... they think they have it right the
>>>> first time and are the most stupid people I've seen...
>>>
>>> The few with which I've dealt haven't seemed to be stupid -- they're
>>> just
>>> in too much of a hurry to double-check things. Gotta make that deadline.
>>>
>>> George Patterson
>>> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to
>>> the
>>> mashed potatoes.
>>
>>
> I work at a newspaper. About half of the reporters are concrete stupid. We
> had one last year doing an interview with a Navy vet and she asked him
> what
> Pearl Harbor was. Those of us that heard her ask were stunned when he
> continued with the interview instead of hanging up on her dumb ass.
> Even when we did a story on the flight school I trained at, and I pointed
> out a number of glaring errors long before deadline, they were not fixed.
> Among other things, it "sounded better" to say "license to fly" when the
> student had only soloed.
> --
> Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
>
> Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
> http://www.wizardofdraws.com
>
> More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
> http://www.cartoonclipart.com
>

"A.Coleman" > wrote in message
. ..
> The damned ceiling couldn't have been more than 500 feet. Temp/dewpoint
> spread was zero. Says something about American Flyers that it's taking a
> primary student up shooting instrument approaches in low IMC .

Was it _expected_ low IMC? When I was learning to fly, my instructor (13,000
hour ATPL) took me out in IMC with a cloudbase of 800 feet and two potential
diversions to where the weather was nice just in case. The forecast said 800
feet for the rest of the day, and ATC said 800 feet when we started down the
ILS. We went around at 500 feet (still in IMC) on the first attempt, just so
we could resolve the conflict between what we heard and what we saw, and on
the second attempt (at which point ATC's observations had been revised)
popped out of the bottoms at 300 feet.

The experience was most rewarding and educational. At no time was there any
danger, we were well within the restrictions of the instructor's licence,
the instructor was extremely experienced in IMC flying, training and
examining (in fact he was my IMC rating examiner a couple of years later)
and we had diversions just in case everything got foggy.

It's not fair, then, to suggest that taking a student out in IMC was a bad
thing to do. In my case it taught me how to not kill myself by inadvertently
flying into a cloud (something that I'm not convinced you can learn properly
on a nice day with foggles on). The only caveat here, though, is that the
zero spread between temperature and dewpoint would have made me think twice.

D.

"Peter R." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> It's worth noting that the student was NOT an instrument student. He
>> was still working on his private ticket.
> If that is truly the case, then it would seem more probably that the
> instructor were flying the approach from the left seat. I cannot
> imagine any student pilot being able to, nor a primary instructor
> allowing the student to fly an approach in actual low IFR conditions.

It's quite possible that the student flew a chunk of the approach and then
the instructor took over when it started to go a bit askew. When I was a
student I flew a vectored rejoin, established (sort of) on the localiser and
got down to about 600 feet with my instructor giving instructions all the
way ("left a couple of degrees, take off about 100rpm, ..."). Only when the
needles started to drift about did the instructor take over (and isn't it
annoying when you've been slaving for five minutes to keep them vaguely
right and the instant he takes over they hammer back to where they should be
and stay there ? :-)

Of course, the sign of a good instructor is that (a) he/she knows to take
over while all is not lost; and (b) he/she realises that if he/she takes
over a bit late, the direction to go in is up.

D.

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:rIgbe.19158$%c1.12969@fed1read05...
> I've never seen a reporter do that... they think they have it right the
> first time and are the most stupid people I've seen... seeming to be
> experts at things they no nothing about... they don't even know enough to
> ask the question..

Having worked in publishing, I've seen good reporters and bad ones. I'd
never try to be a reporter because I hate interviewing people for 80-word
stories - I'm more a features writer who wants to explore the subject more
thoroughly. So I've tended to reside in the tech-editor slot in the
magazines I've worked for.

The bad reporters I've worked with have never asked me anything about
technology. The good ones have come to me daily and said: "I think this is
what this means, but can you explain it?".

D.

What he was doing was putting IMC time in the CFI's logbook.


> It's worth noting that the student was NOT an instrument student. He
> was still working on his private ticket. It was a pretty low day for a
> student pilot to be shooting instrument approaches, in fact I have no
> idea what they were doing out there that day. I can't imagine my
> primary instructor allowing me out in such low weather.

Tom Fleischman wrote:

> Believe me, by the time he got to his final position he would have been
> handed off long ago. Normally NY App does the handoff shortly before
> clearing for the approach, certainly outside the HESTER (the outer
> makrker/FAF). He went down less than a half mile from the threshold.

How is the approach clearance delivered *after* the handoff?

Tom Fleischman wrote:
> In article
> <250420051652421759%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjunkatma >,
> Tom Fleischman >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Normally NY App does the handoff shortly before
>>clearing for the approach, certainly outside the HESTER (the outer
>>makrker/FAF).
>
>
> DOH!!
>
> That would be "after".

Oh. Disregard my earlier question. DGB

"Wizard of Draws" > wrote in
message news:BE933281.64DF1%jeffbTAKEOUTALLCAPS@TOEMAILwiz ardofdraws.com...
> I work at a newspaper. About half of the reporters are concrete stupid. We
> had one last year doing an interview with a Navy vet and she asked him
what
> Pearl Harbor was.



That's where Germany attacked the US and drew us into the Spanish-American
War.

Everyone know that!

> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 04:35:27 GMT, "H.P." > wrote:
>
>>They're stupid AND lazy. I was in P.R. for about 10 years and reporters
>>just
>>ate out of my hand. I basically did the work for them on the facts and my
>>clients paid for it. My biggest successes were stories that I wrote but
>>were
>>printed whole cloth by the paper. I once was duped by a client. I sent
>>out
>>press releases, press kits and got the nets, locals, cable and radio to
>>cover an event based upon a wrong premise. I got ink, video and radio for
>>my
>>client like there was no tomorrow. Not one of them fact-checked.
>
>
> Let's see if I understand this...
>
> YOU were duped, and the newspaper reporters were the ones at fault for
> not fact-checking?

No he was given false info by his client who paid him to get it out in the
press. He had no responsibility to prove everything that he gave the press
was true. If PR people had to do that they would all be out of business in a
week. Their job is to spin information to put their client in the best
light.

On the other hand the press has a responsibility to check facts. ESPECIALLY
when it comes from a PR firm.

> wrote in message

>>No he was given false info by his client who paid him to get it out in the
>>press. He had no responsibility to prove everything that he gave the press
>>was true. If PR people had to do that they would all be out of business in
>>a
>>week. Their job is to spin information to put their client in the best
>>light.
>>
>>On the other hand the press has a responsibility to check facts.
>>ESPECIALLY
>>when it comes from a PR firm.
>>
>
>
> In other words, I DO understand this.

So..., If a client gives a PR person something to spin, the PR hack
has NO responsibility. That's what your understanding is? It doesn't matter
whether the material is good or total BS?
I predict some back-pedalling coming here. Like, "Oh well, if I KNOW
it's BS, I won't take the job." Well, how about when you have some suspicion
that the info isn't on the up and up? Do you spin it then? Or do you do
some questioning? Are the $$$ bigger than the ethics?
How about when some convincing flake passes plausible BS to the
reporter? The reporter, you say is obligated to determine the material is
true, yet you have no responsibility to make sure its true in the first
place. In other words, you can BS the public... if nobody catches it at the
news desk.

Casey Wilson wrote:

> InÂ*otherÂ*words,Â*youÂ*canÂ*BSÂ*theÂ*public...Â*i fÂ*nobodyÂ*catchesÂ*itÂ*atÂ*the
> news desk.

Back to politics, are we?

- Andrew

RomeoMike wrote:

> Most people in general circumstances
> will forget the story in a few days.

I'd like to think you're right. But companies pay a lot for "branding", so
I'm left feeling that comments such as those from this particular reporter
do "add up" in the public consciousness.

> In any case, the bottom line is
> that if we pilots were as perfect at flying as you wish reporters were
> at reporting, there would be practically no accidents to report (these
> being the relatively few pure mechanical failures), and therefore no
> cause for your angst.

I'd pit our record against theirs any day.

- Andrew

In article >, RomeoMike
> wrote:

> IMHO, you are a little too sensitive as to what you think the public
> will think, UNLESS we're talking about an airport near which a political
> movement is underfoot to close it.

<snip>

There *is* a political movement afoot to close HPN, there has been for
years, ever since the McMansions started going up all around the
airport about 15 years ago. There are all these aviation enthusiasts
buying homes off the approach end of the main runway and then getting
upset about it and doing their damndest to cklose the airport.

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow"
> > That's where Germany attacked the US and drew us into the
Spanish-American
> > War.
>
>
> "Remember the...starts with "M" ...Merrimack"
>
> Half the kids in my 1977 High School history class drew a line (east to
> west) across Asia, Europe, the Atlantic Ocean, North America, and out into
> the Pacific Ocean to Hawaii - to show the route Japan used to attack Pearl
> Harbor. Some went around Africa and South America because they knew it had
> something to do with aircraft carriers.

They didn't know that Japan moved her entire attack force throught the
Panama Canal, huh?

> Yup, flat map - US on the left, Japan on the right.

Flat map -- flat earth!!


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Matt Barrow" > writes:
> "Montblack" > wrote
> > "Matt Barrow"
> > > That's where Germany attacked the US and drew us into the
> > > Spanish-American War.
> >
> > "Remember the...starts with "M" ...Merrimack"
> >
> > Half the kids in my 1977 High School history class drew a line (east to
> > west) across Asia, Europe, the Atlantic Ocean, North America, and out into
> > the Pacific Ocean to Hawaii - to show the route Japan used to attack Pearl
> > Harbor. Some went around Africa and South America because they knew it had
> > something to do with aircraft carriers.
>
> They didn't know that Japan moved her entire attack force throught the
> Panama Canal, huh?
>
> > Yup, flat map - US on the left, Japan on the right.
>
> Flat map -- flat earth!!

Right! What's the problem?

Isn't that why all our aviation maps are flat?

> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO

Montrose has a Super-Walmart, Home Depot, and Chili's. What
more is there to want?

Everett M. Greene wrote:

> Isn't that why all our aviation maps are flat?

I thought that it was because globes are so tough to fold.

- Andrew

> wrote in message
...
>
>
> Hey, I'm with you on this.
>
> Too much of this "It's the other guy's job to be honest" stuff in
> corporate America, as far as I'm concerned.
>
> And the free market is fast destroying honest journalism, which once
> upon a time we could depend on to reveal the machinations of
> deceptive government and dishonest business.
>
> Unfortunately, the Fox News model seems to be growing rapidly
> dominant. Shill for anybody as long as it turns the most profit.
>
>

I gotta call BS here...

The "traditional" broadcast networks were (and are) capable of being slanted
themselves...while being commercial enterprises. Don't hang it all on FOX.

It took FOX (right leaning though they may be...) to show that the status
quo had been leaning the other way for quite some time.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

"Wizard of Draws" > wrote in
message news:BE933281.64DF1%jeffbTAKEOUTALLCAPS@TOEMAILwiz ardofdraws.com...
> Even when we did a story on the flight school I trained at, and I pointed
> out a number of glaring errors long before deadline, they were not fixed.
> Among other things, it "sounded better" to say "license to fly" when the
> student had only soloed.

Sorry, I don't see what's inaccurate there. A solo endorsement *is* a
license to fly (but not with passengers). Why not refer to it as such?

--Gary

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:05:56 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>I gotta call BS here...
>
>The "traditional" broadcast networks were (and are) capable of being slanted
>themselves...while being commercial enterprises. Don't hang it all on FOX.
>
>It took FOX (right leaning though they may be...) to show that the status
>quo had been leaning the other way for quite some time.
>
>Jay Beckman
>PP-ASEL
>Chandler, AZ


There was a time that the TV news departments were separate entities,
and not answerable to the commercial side, and did not have to fear
offending the commercial interests.

That all changed, and the networks are now almost as bad as the news
channels, although probably less so.

60 Minutes caved in to the tobacco interests back in the days of the
guy (forget his name) who ratted out one of the tobacco companies,
because they feared a huge lawsuit. They lived to regret it.

About the only real journalism that's left is the Lehrer New Hour on
PBS, where you can actually get two civilly presented sides of real
issues.

Unfortunately, Bush and Co are loading up the CPB governing board with
their right-wing cronies, and we will soon be treated on public TV
to staged news conferences and shlled performances where hand-picked
audience members ask pre-screened softball questionsin an attempt to
make a moron president look like he knows what he is talking about.

Heaven knows what we will do for real news after that.

" wrote)
> Unfortunately, Bush and Co are loading up the CPB governing board with
> their right-wing cronies, and we will soon be treated on public TV
> to staged news conferences and shlled performances where hand-picked
> audience members ask pre-screened softball questionsin an attempt to
> make a moron president look like he knows what he is talking about.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/04/27/bush.prime.time/index.html
President Bush will hold a (prime time) news conference Thursday at 8:30
p.m.

These things need to be approached with extreme caution - pizza (cold/hot
your choice) and much, much, much ice cold beer in the freezer will be
needed. BTW, 29 F beer (in